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antirem, do you know the theory of evolution? We wouldn't be seeing any transitions, as evolution takes millions of years. Creatures accustom themselves to nature by changing their feeding habits or growing fur, but the process is too long to monitor. There are no transition periods, evolution is a gradual process, one bit at a time. Besides, evolution doesn't have a goal. It changes this way and that depending on the needs of the creature and the changes in the surrounding environment.

And evolution does not say anything about the big bang, that would be physics, not biology.. But besides that, I think you do not need to as much faith to believe in evolution than religion, as evolution, and science in itself, has only some un-explained phenomenons (big bang, gravity-particle etc.), whereas religion has some more (god based religions anyway). How is god here, why did he create us, why does he not show himself, why is there suffering, different religions and unjust things happening, what is the bleeding point of it all. That's my opinion, so no need to flame me. You can try point out some problems in my argument, but don't expect to me start believing in god if you start quoting the bible on the questions I've put forward.

i believe there is a god in everyone, it is up to that person to believe or not

some tends to be influence by nearby religious group which makes him/her believe in the god of that religious more.

we, as human, do have our up and downs. people tends to seek for spiritual help, like some god which they believe in, during their tough time. and even when they run into lucks, they also thank "god" for given them those goods.

Samppa wrote:And evolution does not say anything about the big bang, that would be physics, not biology.. But besides that, I think you do not need to as much faith to believe in evolution than religion, as evolution, and science in itself, has only some un-explained phenomenons (big bang, gravity-particle etc.), whereas religion has some more (god based religions anyway). How is god here, why did he create us, why does he not show himself, why is there suffering, different religions and unjust things happening, what is the bleeding point of it all. That's my opinion, so no need to flame me. You can try point out some problems in my argument, but don't expect to me start believing in god if you start quoting the bible on the questions I've put forward.

I think "transition periods" really means we have no clue whats going on and we are labeling transition. All science is based on theory. You cant prove god and you cant prove science. Its still faith to believe them or not.

Samppa wrote:And evolution does not say anything about the big bang

Show me where i suggest this in a previouse post.
But now i will suggest it in this one. Where did evolution start? With little microscopic organisms?.. which came from? Go far back enough and your bio teacher will tell you the big bang. Please vist your high school or college teacher and ask.

Samppa wrote:I think you do not need to as much faith to believe in evolution than religion

that depends who you ask and how they rationalize it. For you it is easier to use science for others it may be god. None the less it requires faith as you say.

There are many gaps in both religion an science as far as how things work. Some believe god created everything even the science so theyre both true.

You asked "why is there suffering" If there were not bad things there could not be good because you would not be able to relfect if it was better than something else.

Posting scripture will do nothing unless you belive its true so why do you think i would?

Showing falacys in one anothers beliefes is a good thing. My intent is not to prove you wrong. If i dont agree i will say why. If you tell me im wrong and it makes more since i will add it to what i belive. I did not close off the possibility of science and even posted about a new theory that makes more since then our normal one. If you do see a flaw in your opinion why would you cling to it? im only saying this because i think you misinturpreted the meaning of the discussion when you said "ou can try point out some problems in my argument, but don't expect to me start believing in god if you start quoting the bible on the questions I've put forward."[/quote]

antirem wrote:I think "transition periods" really means we have no clue whats going on and we are labeling transition. All science is based on theory. You cant prove god and you cant prove science. Its still faith to believe them or not.

Umm, so there is no way for me to prove that things fall down, or that the sky is blue during daytime? You do realize why some forms of science are called THEORETICAL SCIENCE, right? Not all science is THEORETICAL SCIENCE.

antirem wrote:But now i will suggest it in this one. Where did evolution start? With little microscopic organisms?.. which came from? Go far back enough and your bio teacher will tell you the big bang. Please vist your high school or college teacher and ask.

No, your bio teacher won't tell you the Big Bang because the Big Bang has nothing to do with biological organisms in any way.

Where did evolution start? The first time a protein or an enzyme was able to replicate. What made the protein? Random assemblies of atoms.

You asked "why is there suffering" If there were not bad things there could not be good because you would not be able to relfect if it was better than something else.

Okay, so bad is the antithesis of good, and the natural state of things is good. So if there is no good, then there is no good to compare bad to, so the bad is simply good? It makes no logical sense.

Good and Evil are relative.

nighthawk wrote:Umm, so there is no way for me to prove that things fall down, or that the sky is blue during daytime? You do realize why some forms of science are called THEORETICAL SCIENCE, right? Not all science is THEORETICAL SCIENCE.

I like science a lot. I think that it coexists with my views of a god. I do not mean to bash science. I am not big on knowing the theory of evolution but where did those "Random assemblies of atoms." come from? I do belive in evoultion.

nighthawk wrote:Okay, so bad is the antithesis of good, and the natural state of things is good. So if there is no good, then there is no good to compare bad to, so the bad is simply good? It makes no logical sense.

Good and Evil are relative.

good and evil are relative but it is relative to you. I think it would be better to say good and bad though which was my mistake. It could be related to the poor and the rich. In america $7.5 dollars an hour is normal wages, in guatamala $2 a day is normal. There view of rich and poor is different but you still cant have poor people unless there are those above them. Theres a book called Mere Christianity by cs lewis (non christians will like this book as well, atheist whatever) I dont think i have the writing talent to convey the point but lewis does. (theres an audiobook torrent on www.demonoid.com) He compares right and wrong though and how we could not have one without the other. I think the same applies to good and evil. When talking about comparing you need more than one thing.

I have not used any christian writings in my posts because it would show a christian stereotype but i dont think that is reflected in this book. It is unlike christian teachings at church. Because of it i now believe that everyone who honestly trys to follow their conscience to do good will goto heaven, which conflicts with what i was taught. (ive asked questions about this to pastors and all i get is bs awnsers)

In your previous post you leapt from one topic to another and back again, and I understood you were connecting the two.
The reason I posted the scripture part was because this is painfully common when you ask anyone religious. I remember my old religion teacher repeating the sentence 'God has always been there' when asked how God came into being, and banging on about the same passage of the bible at every given opportunity - needless to say, it was pretty inefficient.


What this topic is boiling down to, is people have their beliefs and each is right in it's own way. Neither can be explained, and I tend to think it's got something to do with the surrounding environment and your upbringing.
Would you be still believe in god if you had been brought up not to believe?

Samppa wrote:What this topic is boiling down to, is people have their beliefs and each is right in it's own way. Neither can be explained, and I tend to think it's got something to do with the surrounding environment and your upbringing.
Would you be still believe in god if you had been brought up not to believe?

Whats this boiling down to.. i think its like all the forums here where people give there views and refine them. A lot of christians cant defend their religion and gets emotional. When someone gets emotional that means they dont have facts to back up there statment. So i like debating it because i think i have a good grasp on it but if you show me where im wrong thats great too.

Nature vs nurture. I like this behaviorist view point... but i dont know if it can fit with god, still working it all out but i need to study behaviorism more. Nature vs nurture is... You have genes, these genes make your brain which interprets data. Your environment (nurture) gives you this data. Both nature and nurture you can not control. When you interpret the data your brain will tell you what to say. So you dont really have any freewill because it is dictated by your surroundings and your genes. If i was born islam i probably would be islamic, if you were born a pastors kid you would probably be christian.

Never could understand behaviorists.. More into cognitive psychology as some 'big' behavioral theories have been proved wrong and I don't like the way they tell me I'm totally restricted.

Of course, that depends on how I've been taught, and there wasn't much behavioral stuff in there.

antirem wrote:Whats this boiling down to.. i think its like all the forums here where people give there views and refine them. A lot of christians cant defend their religion and gets emotional. When someone gets emotional that means they dont have facts to back up there statment. So i like debating it because i think i have a good grasp on it but if you show me where im wrong thats great too.

A "good grasp" on it?

antirem wrote:krod.. i think you need just as much faith to belive evolution as you need to belive in religion.

How can your state that when you refuse to differentiate science from belief?

i think a lot of science is belief. If this were not so scientists would not have different theories to how something works.

antirem wrote:i think a lot of science is belief. If this were not so scientists would not have different theories to how something works.

That is an oxymoron. Thats like saying you're an evolutionary creationist, just not possible. Theories differ because there are often more than one way to arrive at a conclusion, (eg 2+2 =4 or 6 - 2 = 4) and usually the correct theory is one that is a combination of the two. It also does not mean that one or the other is neccessarily wrong.

People should get it out of their head that "theories" are just "guesses." A scientist just doesnt wake up one day and say "hey, i think i should make up a new theory today." Theories come as a result of careful observation. To give you as example, we have what is known as the theory of electrical current - nobody can physically see the little electrons travelling through the copper wires, but we assume them to be there, because we see the results from observation.

My view on God: Revolves around quantum physics, i suggest you watch "What the bleep do we know" - excellent movie/documentary.

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maybe. maybe not. either way you can't prove it.

There has to be a prime mover...who created who and who wasn't created...that being is God.

How come there has to be?

I don't see it.

What do you mean? It's pretty easy to understand...where did you come from? Your mom where did your family come from? Some clan...where did that clan come from...some species...where did that species come from...some species who evolved to that species...blah blah...until (If you believe the big bang), where did the big bang come from...? Where? Where? Where? It's going to be a never ending question but there HAS to be an end. It ain't numbers.