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hmmm, i think this arguments gonna be a circular one - there is no "scientific" proof to say that God does or does not exist. you believe one thing, i believe another. it seems. i'll keep it short

al_tyranny wrote:You state that much of you "faith in God" comes from the Bible: likewise, if I brought you a five thousand year old manual on how to build and operate an intergalactic flying saucer, would you instantly believe in flying saucers because this book told you so? As for "knowing God's presence," why are you so sure it's "God"? Could it not be explained in any other manner? Some people say that there exists an "astral realm," in which different "spirit entities" float around--how do you know that this "presence" is not a "something" in the "unseen astral universe"?

And what are these examples of things "created by design"? So far as I know, everything in nature evolved out of a necessity for being there. Well, all except a certain part of female anatomy that seems to exist purely for pleasure (which I won't mention here . I'm not saying there aren't some random things, I'm just saying that if all things were "designed" as you say, I'd expect a superior being to put more effort into them (human eyes are terribly weak, though that's nothing when compared to elbows and knees!), especially if we are "made in his image."

The Bible vs a how to build a UFO book? I dont even see how that relates. The Bible attempts to explain right through from creation to the history of the early church. And I wasn't a instant believer. I read the bible a lot and came to found truth in what it said. Instant belief through blind faith is what makes most modern religions a dangerous thing in the world today. People warp things they dont know much about.

As for the design issue - I think that humans were created absolutely perfect. The imperfections are simply things that have been handed down through genetics - affected by different "man-induced" disease etc.

al_tyranny wrote:People are being healed all over the world? Great, I've got a slight bit of asthma, maybe I can go and get that fixed. And I'm very near-sighted, got anything for that? And my knees are weaker than most peoples' my age ... that can all be changed by this, right?

Seriously though, if you want to say that people "all over the world" are "being healed," I challenge you to submit proof that this is so: "before-and-after" pictures, x-rays of the afflicted portions, eyewitness reports, and reliable third-party testimony. It's true that we don't have to know what the cause of something is to know it works, but until you have good evidence and a good theory that is supported by the evidence, how can you arbitrarily assign it to some cause (God)?

Maybe you can be healed...have a little faith! Have a look round on the net - I'm sure there are plenty of sites with testimonies and 3rd party accounts of amazed doctors etc. I've seen quite a few.

al_tyranny wrote:the probability that he exists is very minimal (seeing how science explains so much of the universe so nicely)

You think? I think science does a very poor job of explaining the universe...

I see my proof in creation, in Jesus' amazing foretold life-death-resurrection in which there were many witnesses, in the changing of lives even today. These things are enough for me.

al_tyranny wrote:By the way, I thank you, tokyo, for a really interesting discussion--I haven't had this much fun in awhile and hope we can do this again

Cheers. But I hope we dont have to do this again.

nighthawk wrote:If you take a look, the bible has repeatidly been changed to uphold scientific knowledge. Genesis turned from truth to "stories". The flood, after it was disproved that forty days of rain could actually create a flood, turned into a 'metaphor'.

Repeatedly changed? No it hasnt... There is no scientific knowledge that disproves Genesis. And as for the flood - there are many scientists out there that believe there isplenty of evidence for the great flood. How could anyone disprove the forty days/nights thing if they dont know how hard it rained?

tokyo wrote:As for the design issue - I think that humans were created absolutely perfect. The imperfections are simply things that have been handed down through genetics - affected by different "man-induced" disease etc.

tokyo wrote:Maybe you can be healed...have a little faith! Have a look round on the net - I'm sure there are plenty of sites with testimonies and 3rd party accounts of amazed doctors etc. I've seen quite a few.

Testimonies are nothing without proof. A great example of this is the Alex Chiu Immortality ring craze. Http://www.alexchiu.com

You think? I think science does a very poor job of explaining the universe...

I see my proof in creation, in Jesus' amazing foretold life-death-resurrection in which there were many witnesses, in the changing of lives even today. These things are enough for me.

Who were these witnesses? Romans habitually left their crucified on the cross to rot, that's why there are almost no remaining corpses of crucified individuals. Why would one man be taken down, put into a tomb. And then 'reborn'?

tokyo wrote:Repeatedly changed? No it hasn’t... There is no scientific knowledge that disproves Genesis. And as for the flood - there are many scientists out there that believe there is plenty of evidence for the great flood. How could anyone disprove the forty days/nights thing if they don’t know how hard it rained?

Two things that disprove Genesis. Well, three actually.

1. Law of Conservation of Mass. You can't make matter out of nothing.
2. Law of Conservation of Energy. You can't create energy out of nothing.
3. Eve came from Adam's rib? Men have the same amount of ribs as women. Furthermore, you can't create a breeding population out of two people.

And they have proven that the amount of water needed to fall for forty days and nights would have to fall so hard and so much it would have destroyed the upper layer of the earth's crust. Also, where did all this water come from? Water can't be created out of thin air. Also, once again, you can't create a breeding population out of two individuals. And do you really think an ark was big enough to house two of every single species of animal?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

In addition, science does disprove Genesis with the aforementioned things I said. The idea of moons revolving around other plants was against Church doctrine, and so is a heliocentric view of the solar system.

nighthawk wrote:Who were these witnesses? Romans habitually left their crucified on the cross to rot, that's why there are almost no remaining corpses of crucified individuals. Why would one man be taken down, put into a tomb. And then 'reborn'?

I don't know the history of Roman crucifixion. I do know that the events surrounding the crucifixion are regarded as historically accurate. The part that is scrutinized is the ressurection.

nighthawk wrote:Two things that disprove Genesis. Well, three actually.

1. Law of Conservation of Mass. You can't make matter out of nothing.
2. Law of Conservation of Energy. You can't create energy out of nothing.
3. Eve came from Adam's rib? Men have the same amount of ribs as women. Furthermore, you can't create a breeding population out of two people.

Thats one of the characteristics of God though isn't it? That He is not restricted by the laws of physics etc...

nighthawk wrote:In addition, science does disprove Genesis with the aforementioned things I said. The idea of moons revolving around other plants was against Church doctrine, and so is a heliocentric view of the solar system.

The idea of moons revolving around other planets does not conflict with scripture. Rather, it conflicted with the views of the leaders of the oppressive regime that the church was over many hundreds of years...

[quote=tokyo]Thats one of the characteristics of God though isn't it? That He is not restricted by the laws of physics etc...[/quote]

He created them? Why shouldn't He?

The idea of moons revolving around other planets does not conflict with scripture. Rather, it conflicted with the views of the leaders of the oppressive regime that the church was over many hundreds of years...

It conflicts with the idea that everything revolves around this planet.

When going for a literal reading of the bible and Genesis, you find that many things are simply impossible. The Ark couldn't have held all those animals, you can't create a breeding population out of two animals, and serphants don't tempt naked women with apples.

And I'm not going to even bring up the 'what created God' argument because it's pointless and counter productive [/quote]

What a truly entertaining discussion. I guess now I understand why there are religious wars.

Couple of thoughts: God is a concept for an abstract, unknowable, entity (not unlike the IRS). People cannot wrap their little dinosaur brains around abstract things, so we made him a dude. THE Dude. Why not a woman? Women are waay more powerful than men..they control my life including where my money goes, what I wear, and even which web sites I visit (when she's not looking...note to self, clear history in web browser).

And if god has a son, who was the mother? Did god have any daughters? Are they hot? (Jenny Christ?) What's with the only-child thing? If we are supposed to be like god, we would all be single fathers with one son..and have no idea who the mother is.

And, while his son was here on earth, did he ever get laid? If sex is good, and created by god, why would god deprive his only son from getting some? (if I were Jesus, I would be really pissed if I got to live on earth for
30+ years, not get laid, and then get nailed up on cross). "Gee, thanks dad for the fun field trip to earth, NOT".

There are three steps to this, and people tend to believe in some combination of the following three things:

1) There is good and evil.

2) There are forces of good and evil. (use the force, Luke)

3) There a conscious immortal out there behind the curtain who created, knows, and controls it all. (Alan Greenspan? Bill Gates?? but which side is HE on? ).

- The faithful optimist believes all three, all the time. Good for them. God Bless em. More power to you. Hope you picked the right one. Keep it to yourself, leave me alone, and get your $%^& stickers about intelligent design out of my biology textbook. And another thing, as Bono said "The God I know aint short of cash, Mister".

If you are truly faithful, give all your money to the poor, give your $800K home to the homeless, and use your Lincoln Navigator to transport the sick and infirm for medical treatment. What would Jesus do? Naturally he would
live in a big house, drive a big SUV, and live in the suburbs where those unsightly homeless people and those (gasp) 'friends of Dorothy' are not welcome.

-There are those who must have THEIR religion and THEIR book and THEIR god and/or his son. (which, of course, is better than YOUR god, book, and religion). I guess it helps to choose a brand and stick with it. And the perverse extreme is those who kill those whose beliefs are different than yours.

But what if you're wrong? You spend your whole life 'high on the cross' and you die and there's Buddha, just laughing his ass off and telling you where to go. You blow yourself up as a martyr and "oops...we're fresh out of
virgins, but you have been reincarnated as a pig and the 50 innocent people you killed are hungry for some barbecue". But first squeal like a pig...."

- Those who are insane are having a full-duplex conversation with God all the time..... how do we know that they really are not??

- If there are forces of good and evil, why do they exist? What purpose does evil serve? Who or what benefits from disease, suffering, death?

How can we donate money to make the forces of good more powerful in the universe? Is there some big war going on up in the sky between good and evil that we don't know about? What if evil wins...are we toast?

Our friend Depak tells us that evil exists so we appreciate good. But concepts such as evil do not create themselves, so that implies that there is a God.

-On the other hand, if there is a God, why does evil exist and flourish? Why do innocent people suffer and die?

There is some unspoken Earth non-intervention rule for God.

But just once in awhile can't an exception be granted? Like on September 11th, to give Todd Beamer another ten seconds to bust in the cabin door on flight 93? For a cop to make a traffic stop as Timothy McVeigh drove to that federal building in Oklahoma.

And then there is the issue of 'the great flood'. I am totally confused by the concept that God got really pissed

at the world so he just wiped it out and started over. That sounds pretty harsh to me. Global genocide? There had

to be at least a couple of good people on earth at the time. And a newborn human is not capable of evil (well maybe in the diaper).

So on God's resume, he gets to put down that he created the universe, created all the people, and then killed all but a couple of them. I don't get it.

That's all my opinion, and I might be wrong.

rmorella wrote:What a truly entertaining discussion. I guess now I understand why there are religious wars.

Only reason I speak her is it's for Serious Discussion. I don't generally discuss religion with people in normal settings. It leads to bad things.

rmorella wrote:What a truly entertaining discussion. I guess now I understand why there are religious wars.

When one person believes something so firmly that they are certian that it is true and that other beliefs, by default, are false, it can potentially lead to a problem. If one believes that their way of belief will save themselves and others from eternal damnation, they will do more to pursuade or 'save' those around them.

They may force their beliefs on you, all in the name of "it's for your own good". If it comes down to it, and words are not enough, physical force can take over as the method of pursuasion. The one being pressured may think that the pursuader is out of their minds, but the pursuader may think they are just trying to shine light on the truth. It has caused thousands of people to be burned alive, drowned, etc... all for 'their own good' in hopes that they would become a believer in those last seconds of their life and be 'saved'.

I'd rather have someone attack me for my food, or other resources, because they will stop as soon as they aquire their goals. A religious or philisophical warrior wouldn't stop at anything until they've absolutely conqured and restructured to their liking. They cannot be bargained with.

(sorry for any misspellings or bad structure, I'm trying to type this as I eat during lunch real quick)

tokyo wrote:The idea of moons revolving around other planets does not conflict with scripture. Rather, it conflicted with the views of the leaders of the oppressive regime that the church was over many hundreds of years...

So we can change the bible to keep up with the times?
In Acts it talks about keeping the women quite in church but not the men. This is because women used to speak out of turn thinking that god was giving them a message so they could tell the church while John (john wrote acts right?) and other church leaders thought that the wome were making it up.. probably subconciously.

Much of christianity stems from the romans... that dosnt mean it not true tho. I think of the bible as a guide to a moral like and relationship with christ but there are a lot of things wrong with it. Like the church..

Actually tokyo, the church does not even accept the stories of genesis. They are just stories, to give a explanation on how the universe was created.

The bible was written some hundred years after the events took place. This means that the stories/events in the bible were carried by word of mouth. When stories are carried by word of mouth, they are exhagerated. We can see this in recent folklore and urban myths, such as john henry, big foot, etc. Jesus probably existed, perhaps under a different name. He probably was a good man, perhaps he healed a few people(medicine?), and he may have been crucified. However, you only can expect these events to be exaggerated a lot.

krod wrote:Actually tokyo, the church does not even accept the stories of genesis. They are just stories, to give a explanation on how the universe was created.

Really? Explain. I dont know of any church or mosque like that but show me some examples.

krod wrote:The bible was written some hundred years after the events took place. This means that the stories/events in the bible were carried by word of mouth. When stories are carried by word of mouth, they are exhagerated. We can see this in recent folklore and urban myths, such as john henry, big foot, etc. Jesus probably existed, perhaps under a different name. He probably was a good man, perhaps he healed a few people(medicine?), and he may have been crucified. However, you only can expect these events to be exaggerated a lot.

yes and no. Old testament was written down and rewritten over and over (on that paper that starts with a p) if you changed what was written and found out about you were killed. IM sure a few things slipped through tho

New testament was written from 49-90B.C. [url=http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm]check it out[/img] There can be doubt in the N.T. not because of word of mouth but how it was earlier used. Catholic priests who were the only ones who were able to read it to and they might have twisted the meaning (it was latin.. not the common language) King James spent a lot of money to translate the bible to the common language. I know he spent a lot of money on people reading old texts and translating. So the KJV was not based on the catholics bible. IM not sure about this but i assume that catholics got a hold og KJV's and brought them to church so the Catholic church had to switch over but added the apocrapha (which i still need to read) I could be wrong on the last part so please correct me if im wrong
[/url]

antirem wrote:yes and no. Old testament was written down and rewritten over and over (on that paper that starts with a p) if you changed what was written and found out about you were killed. IM sure a few things slipped through tho

New testament was written from 49-90B.C.

No, and your own source says that's wrong. Those are all A.D. dates under New Testment. Jesus isn't even believed to have been born until 25-12 BC. How could they write the NT before he was born/died?

nighthawk wrote:No, and your own source says that's wrong. Those are all A.D. dates under New Testment. Jesus isn't even believed to have been born until 25-12 BC. How could they write the NT before he was born/died?

My bad... i meant AD

I am a believer or whatever you called me, because all that i know there's must be a great creative power to create this complex world (not just te earth), do you think human can create such a thing, or maybe the whole species in the world??

If you want to know if there is God or not, why don't you try to challenge God, just shout like this "Hey God, will you s*ck my d*ck in the end of the world" or whatever you think can makes God really angry to you!!!

You won't believe until God wants you to believe

omjin wrote:I am a believer or whatever you called me, because all that i know there's must be a great creative power to create this complex world (not just te earth), do you think human can create such a thing, or maybe the whole species in the world??

If you want to know if there is God or not, why don't you try to challenge God, just shout like this "Hey God, will you s*ck my d*ck in the end of the world" or whatever you think can makes God really angry to you!!!

You won't believe until God wants you to believe

Humans are what they are today, because of evolution, along with every other species. I will not attempt to explain it, as Darwin's Origin of species does a much better job then I ever could. It is impossible for a logical person to deny evolution, it is such a evident fact.
As we start to understand evolution and the origin of life, the stories of creation become stories and not facts. Much like the stories of the ancient Greeks that attempt to explain natural phenomenons(storms, wind, rain)


As said before, the universe is so complex, humans have turned to abstract ideas in a attempt to explain it.
Throughout history, almost every civilization has had some sort of religion, with a omnipotent god. It is human nature, to explain things. It only can be expected for humans to create abstract ideas for things they don't understand.

krod.. i think you need just as much faith to belive evolution as you need to belive in religion.

What started the big bang? What created god/s? String theory suggest that universes clashed together and made the bang... but where did those other universes come from? There are a lot of missing links in evolution. If it were true we would see animals in transition periods of one thing to another.... but we dont. Both sciene and religion is an attempt to explain what cant be (regardless of which is right)

(there is a newtheory that does away with th big bang and black matter... but i havnt educated myself enough on it to validly use it.. i dont know how much of the scientific community belives it either)