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Tavy wrote:Excellent post

Feedback is always welcome because that's what makes a fruitful conversation , especially Positive Feedback!

btw , I guess there is another suitable term that can be used to describe creationist thinking and that would be:

Absolutism

you know , that close-minded idiology which dictates that something has to be either good/evil or like saying: " that there is a god just because jesus or I-dunnu-how said so..etc"

Cheers

Dualism is somewhat related to absolutism, and is an extremely common concept - it makes it easier for people to understand moral opposites of good and evil, and how to apply them to actions.
Zoroastrism or Zoroastrism is an ancient, monotheistic, dualist religion; you may find it interesting. It is based upon the concept of Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, the principle of Good - and the opposing God[?], Angra Mainyu, the principle of Evil, or Darkness. Many other philosophies and religions are based around the concept of dualism, and as a metaphorical belief - it can be a very good thing. Clearly defining the lines between Good and Evil is a good objective; especially without the "kill the unbeliever" part. As a moral compass of sorts, or at least a set of basic moral ground rules, religion and god and whatnot is a good thing - it's when people take it beyond that of a metaphor, and start getting too serious about it that violence begins to occur, and generally it goes from a source of common good - to a source of hate, violence, and generally negative attitudes.

A excellent source of information on Zoroastrianism is The Zoroastrian Archives.

Yes , I know about Zoroastrism (learned about in the history class in high school...a couple years ago)
Actually the dualist roots of Zoroastrism and/or good and evil can be traced back as early as to the ancient egyption beliefs , people at the time used to believe in "good" and "bad" gods like Osiris , Isis and Seth...
though egyption mythology is more of a pluralist nature since the belief in the existence of many gods but at last it fits in the philosophy of dualism (basically every belief system does)
for example , Seth was noted as the "root of all evil" from causing floods and bad crops till disease and everything else that was classified as foul or ugly , also was he made responsible for the murder of his brother Osiris (who was later resurrected by Isis and then became the god of the underworld)

btw , linguists often suggest that the contemporary word "Satan" was derived from the hebrew phrase "Set-hen" (an alternative spelling of Seth) which in turn originated from the ancient egyption "Seth" or "Set".

Netmaster

After many years as a preacher and countless hours of study (I am 48yr old now and began when I was six) my conclusion is there is no person who can prove inconclusively that there is or ever was a god. No one I have ever talked to can produce one out of thin air to show me and as far as miracles go I have learned that the human mind is capable of healing the human body. Whereas if you could harness the power of the mind I think you could cure all types of sicknesses.

Furthur in this discussion there is no one who can prove inconclusivley that there isn't a god and those that believe that there is it is only what they believe and not what is proven. In most cases it is what a person is taught their whole lives or a circumstance has arisen where they had to have faith something was going to happen positively, that created this belief. It is as habitual as drugs and cigarettes, to follow along with something that you cannot prove.

There is so much to discuss on this subject that it would be imposible to do it in one sitting. I have accumulated much knowledge on the subject and whether right or wrong, would just be someones opinion unless they had evidence to back up any claim they might make. The discussion I propose is "I don't know, do you"? Then try to prove it with something tangable (something that can be seen and touched with the human eye and hand). Because you can believe anything but you can prove little.

Am I saying there is no god? No all I am saying is if you are going to blindly believe something then you are foolish. In the middle east they believe that they are to give up their lives for thier god, but they have no proof that thier god exists other than what they are taught so does that make them any more wrong in thier belief than any christian that follows along because thats what they are taught. Also I am not talking about an internal feeling of emotion that sparks your mind you can get that from drugs. I am talking about fisical evidence that your god exists. It's kind of like the story of Elijah how he brought fire down from heaven to consume the sacrifice (although I don't believe it ever happened). I am not talking about someone being healed of something because as I have stated before the mind has the power to heal which has been proven through scientific studies.

Prove your theory to me or you are no better than Charles Darwin and it remains a theory.

Samppa wrote:I thought it states quite clearly in the New Testament (and the Old?) that there is a Devil?

The new testament is the only area that states devil and demons. The old testament uses the word satan but in Job it talks about him as only an acuser of humans, not a horrible evil that man has to watch out for. Just an intity that watches human kind and reports to god all the problems.

As far as lucifer, the meaning is "son of the morning' or morning star, it is talking about the prince of the kingdom on this earth not a supernatual prince. Again in Job it talks about more than one son of god. So the bible is very contradictive, and also if you look up the meaning of hell in the new testament it has two meanings one is hell a holding place for lost souls and the other is hell the lake of fire. Then in revelation you see it says death and hell are both thrown into the lake of fire. How can hell be thrown into hell, it would already be there wouldn't it?

wegstar wrote:

uzunov wrote:God is inside us....there is God only in our mind and souls,,we keep out desteny and future in our hands..what we want to happen in depends only on us..and That`s the whole Truth.

The idea for God is created by people who want to control the others, because sometimes only the fear of God stops us of doing crazy things, if we live without the idea that soon after out death will pay for the bad things we have done while we was alive, is gonna to being anarchy

Exactly, the idea of God was created to control the masses and prevent chaos, something like a form of government.

"Man by nature is a political animal, and it is his nature to live in a state."
-Aristotle

The state could represent a i,e, a church, or a community with a common religion.

The idea of God was also created in man's need for a goal in life. If we look at all the living beings around in the world today, we see that one thing they all work for is survival. Well, we are beyond that, and so the idea of a God was created to "give" us a new "goal".

If you study true historic writings and stay away from bibilcal theology, you see Nero Caesar brought all the religions of the world together and created what is known throughout the world as following the teachings of christ or "the new testament. He wanted to control the world population at that time and knew through religious fears and superstitions he would be able to accomplish his goal.

Now this is no more relivent to anything than the bible is because it is the writing of a man at some point in history that saw something a certain way and wrote it down for posterity. Not to say it isn't correct but "Who Knows" for sure. It is like the round robin that is played in parties when one person says something in someones ear and it goes around the table and returns to him completely different. The first part of the old testament was written (and again only what I have read) 1600 years after they happened who knows how the stories had grown from thier origins.

Do I believe in anything? Yes, I believe I have a family and a job, I try my best to be kind to others and to live modestly. Does that mean I am right or wrong. There is no one in this forum that is right and know one who is wrong. Logic says that if you can't prove it you are wrong but is logic correct.

The thing is there is no black and white when you are talking about these things because for every quote, for it! I can give you many quotes for the opposition. So my quote stands "Who Knows". Yet it is still such an intriuging subject that a person can't stop thinking about it no matter how secure they are in thier beliefs.

dama wrote:

Samppa wrote:Problem? Yin and yang are not absolutely opposite, they are relatively opposite. "No one thing is completely yin or completely yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite. For example, winter can turn into summer; "what goes up must come down"."

in other words, "God is both evil and good" being a contradiction does not apply at all. Evil and Good are just two parts of a concept that human created to denote things, just like yin and yang as two opposite things. They are both one - Tao - which is indescribeble. Yin and yang are just our ways to think about it.

Now if you believe the bible it says in Isaiah that "God created evil". How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. Even all the inventors of the world had something presented whether mentally or physically which ultimately became what they invented. Also in Genisis it says he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So If you believe the bible you have to believe the theory god is both evil and good.

If there is a god he ultimatly was at one time the same as we are and grew into something above us which would mean we would have the same ability as him to grow into something more, which would bring up the question then is there multiple gods. If he adapted and became greater, how many other occomplished the same feat.

who knows wrote:

dama wrote:

Samppa wrote:Problem? Yin and yang are not absolutely opposite, they are relatively opposite. "No one thing is completely yin or completely yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite. For example, winter can turn into summer; "what goes up must come down"."

in other words, "God is both evil and good" being a contradiction does not apply at all. Evil and Good are just two parts of a concept that human created to denote things, just like yin and yang as two opposite things. They are both one - Tao - which is indescribeble. Yin and yang are just our ways to think about it.

Now if you believe the bible it says in Isaiah that "God created evil". How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. Even all the inventors of the world had something presented whether mentally or physically which ultimately became what they invented. Also in Genisis it says he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So If you believe the bible you have to believe the theory god is both evil and good.

If there is a god he ultimatly was at one time the same as we are and grew into something above us which would mean we would have the same ability as him to grow into something more, which would bring up the question then is there multiple gods. If he adapted and became greater, how many other occomplished the same feat.

1. You're missing the point. when I said "Evil and Good are just two parts of a concept that human created to denote things", I was referring to the language/knowledge/etymology/epistemology - the process of humans creating language and knowledge out of the unknown. In this process, the idea of "evil" and "good" are born, the same as "high" "low", "black" "white", "long" "short", "you're a loser" "you're cool", etc ... If you look at children growing up and learning / learning to classify things / learning the social and cultural values of one particular family or society or world, you'll see what I mean.

2. "How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. " << This is not what I implied/said. Please see above.


3. "Now if you believe the bible it says in Isaiah that "God created evil". How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. Even all the inventors of the world had something presented whether mentally or physically which ultimately became what they invented. Also in Genisis it says he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So If you believe the bible you have to believe the theory god is both evil and good."
>>> big IF. "God" does not necessarily means the one from the Bible (though He/She can be, as in the beliefs of many people), which means using that assumption to say God is both evil and good is kind of a weak argument.

I'm not sure. I've talked about this topic several times other places, and as far as i can tell, people tend to believe in god when they can't explain something. After all, the most common evidence given for god (in my experience) is "where did all this come from?" Not nescessarily referring to our actual environment, but rather to the existance of all the planets, suns moons, comets, and the universe itself. after all, science explains the earth and the moon as pieces of rock slamming into each other, but then where did those large pieces of rock come from? what created the universe, what is darkmatter, etc etc. I personally believe in god to an extent, mostly when it comes to human behavior, and justifying our own sentience. It's a controversial subject, and i generally avoid such discussions just to avoid saying something dumb, but as much as i believe in god, i don't think that He, if He exists, could be directing our every move. so that's not really not believing in god, so much as it's not believing in destiny.. but that's another matter

dama wrote:1. You're missing the point. when I said "Evil and Good are just two parts of a concept that human created to denote things", I was referring to the language/knowledge/etymology/epistemology - the process of humans creating language and knowledge out of the unknown. In this process, the idea of "evil" and "good" are born, the same as "high" "low", "black" "white", "long" "short", "you're a loser" "you're cool", etc ... If you look at children growing up and learning / learning to classify things / learning the social and cultural values of one particular family or society or world, you'll see what I mean.

2. "How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. " << This is not what I implied/said. Please see above.


3. "Now if you believe the bible it says in Isaiah that "God created evil". How could you (retorically) create something that you had/have no knowledge of. Even all the inventors of the world had something presented whether mentally or physically which ultimately became what they invented. Also in Genisis it says he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So If you believe the bible you have to believe the theory god is both evil and good."
>>> big IF. "God" does not necessarily means the one from the Bible (though He/She can be, as in the beliefs of many people), which means using that assumption to say God is both evil and good is kind of a weak argument.

I agree; my point is that whatever religion someone has been trained under they will most likely follow those teachings. If they believe the bible they would have to believe the whole thing and some of it states that god is involved with evil, or thier belief has no substantiation.


You sound like a person of logic, if more people used logic instead of feelings the world could progress far from where it is now. Logic states blue is blue because that is what a human at some point in history said it was. The same as grunts and groans mean something to some cultures. If a person is either deaf, dumb or blind the way we would communicate with them would change with each circumstance.

The lack of ability to properly communicate is because people use the "I believe" argument, which a persons belief system has no bearing on reality. Children believe in santa because that is what they are taught, does that fantasy ever become reality? Certain indiviuals believe that god is a cow, does that make it so? Without knowledge the people of the world are oblivious to reality, does that mean knowledge is god?

God is a label that one human at on time placed upon what is not feisable or what is not understood. Such as why are we here, or why is the world and universe such a well oiled mechanism. Thier conclusion is god, or basically I don't know or understand.

who knows wrote:Prove your theory to me or you are no better than Charles Darwin and it remains a theory.

Well , the theory has been proven already regarding that "god" is only an imagination as well as Charles Darwin's theory of Evolution!
But the question is whether you would like to Think outside of the box and accept the matter of doubting "god" (..and what is God?) , That is the Real Deal!
Would you dare to doubt GOd? I guess NOT..

Netmaster

Netmaster wrote:

who knows wrote:Prove your theory to me or you are no better than Charles Darwin and it remains a theory.

Well , the theory has been proven already regarding that "god" is only an imagination as well as Charles Darwin's theory of Evolution!
But the question is whether you would like to Think outside of the box and accept the matter of doubting "god" (..and what is God?) , That is the Real Deal!
Would you dare to doubt GOd? I guess NOT..

Netmaster

First you have to have something to doubt, if there is no god then what is there to doubt. If there is a god (which cannot be proven) I am only doubting someone elses superstitions and fears about him/her/they. The mountain people in the Deep South of the USA, have all sorts of superstions and folk lore they believe in, should I believe them because they say it is so? Joseph Smith said an angel visited him and gave him a revelation, is he the one I should believe? In the Middle East the Muslims believe you are to become a martyr for your faith why don't we believe that? I have an example which happened to me directly.

My cousin (who has been a preacher) has become obsessed with conspiracy theories but, it all began when he started believing that god told him to go into the mountains and he would show him where he would find gold. When he came to me with this idea (knowing that he had laid his hands on people and the lame had walked ect...) my response was as soon as you show me a peice of gold I will believe it and will be more than happy to help you. He could not even produce a spec of gold dust!

If I told you I had $1,000,000 in my bank account just waiting for you to claim it, but you wouldn't be able to have it until you die, what would your answer be? Yet people believe that they have a reward waiting for them (everlasting life with god) but can't have it until they die.

So many religions so many gods.

Is god real? I don't know do you? If god does, maybe god is like a painter who has created a beautiful portrait, what does the painter do with it when it is finished? Hangs it on a wall, sells it, throws it away ect... never repainting and repainting. The universe is constantly being repainted (recreated), but in Genisis God Said "it is good (finished).

You say think outside the box, yet the greatest % of the population believe there is a god of some type, so where is the box. I grew up in religion my family is full of preachers on both sides I was a preacher for years. Finally I woke up and realized that what I was believing albeit, good wholesome things none of it was truely fulfilling. So as you say I started thinking outside the box of religion and found a whole new world to explore.

I would love more than anything to know that there is a great protector or father figure and I hope that some day it can be proven to me. Until then I will continue to pursue knowledge and grow in that knowledge.

Live your life as if there were no tomarrow, and if there is, so much the better.

who knows wrote:You sound like a person of logic, if more people used logic instead of feelings the world could progress far from where it is now. Logic states blue is blue because that is what a human at some point in history said it was. The same as grunts and groans mean something to some cultures. If a person is either deaf, dumb or blind the way we would communicate with them would change with each circumstance.

No, something is blue because it's reflecting light at 470 nm wavelength to your eyes. (sorry, can't refrain ).

who knows wrote:God is a label that one human at on time placed upon what is not feisable or what is not understood. Such as why are we here, or why is the world and universe such a well oiled mechanism. Thier conclusion is god, or basically I don't know or understand.

At the edge of things (eg. physics), scientists have been known to sometimes refer to a supernatural hand that make things "just right". (think of some physical constants that you know )

dama wrote:No, something is blue because it's reflecting light at 470 nm wavelength to your eyes. (sorry, can't refrain ).

I was refering to the word not the color. light reflection could have been called fruit, then you would be calling it fruit now. Language was created to mean certain things so one person would know what the other was thinking.

If there is a god what language would you use to communicate with him, because god is not doing a very good job communicating in my language to me.

dama wrote:At the edge of things (eg. physics), scientists have been known to sometimes refer to a supernatural hand that make things "just right". (think of some physical constants that you know )

It Is unexplainable so they say it has to be a supernatural hand, they don't know that for sure. Why is it so hard for the human to throw away thaughts of someone higher than we are. People have wanted to believe in UFO's, Gods, Devils anything to prove that we are not the most intelligent species. Not to say there might be other planets like this one that houses other intelligent humans.

The mountain people in the Deep South of the USA, have all sorts of superstions and folk lore they believe in, should I believe them because they say it is so? Joseph Smith said an angel visited him and gave him a revelation, is he the one I should believe? In the Middle East the Muslims believe you are to become a martyr for your faith why don't we believe that? I have an example which happened to me directly.

Well an interesting thought indeed , but you forgot to mention that some 2000 years ago , a man was allegedly called Jesus who claimed to be the son of god etc ...and was crossified then resurrected(again I say allegedly!). so Shall we believe this fantasy tale??
guess no comment is needed here...