Phoenix Network Forums

There have been a few threads in which this was discussed off topic. I thought I would just make a place to continue the debate.

-selket

I just had to vote selket is an idiot

But that's because there was no option "Who cares, now shoo before you start the flaming"

It's no programming language. It's a scripting language.

so are you programming scripts or are you scripting scripts?

is javascript a programming language? is java a programming language?

do you separate programming language and scripting languages on the fact if its compiled or just executed?

i dont care how it is called, i simply like it because its easy to get on it and you get instant results.

btw: what about a google fight?

programming php: 138 M results

scripting php: 40 M results

I thought on voting selket is an idiot but afraid I might be banned on this forum hehehe hell no PHP is a programming language. They look like a carbon-copy of style (some syntax on C) but definitely with its own pre-made functions, nevertheless, its still not a programming language, more of a advance scripting language with its own functionality that could be of use for every web developer.

PHP is a scripting language. A programming language is something where the result needs to be compiled (like C/C++) while a scripting lanaguge is something which is interpreted (php/perl/etc.).
There are some cases where php appliations can be compiled, however they still rely on the php interpreter to function and as such they are still scripts not programs.

Java can be either depending on its application.

Javascript is a scripting lanaguage. HTML is a markup language (it doesn't actually do anything itself, it just gives some instructions on formatting). Visual Basic is a runtime.

[quote=wikipedia]
Scripting languages (commonly called scripting programming languages or script languages) are computer programming languages initially used only for simple, repeated actions. The name comes from a written script such as a screenplay, where dialog is repeated verbatim for every performance. Early script languages were often called batch languages or job control languages. A script is more usually interpreted than compiled, but not always.

Many such languages are quite sophisticated and have been used to write elaborate programs, which are often still called scripts even though they go well beyond automating simple computer tasks. A script language can be found at almost every level of a computer system. Besides being found at the level of the operating system, they appear in computer games, web applications, word processing documents, network software and more. In many ways, the terms high-level programming language and scripting language have become entwined, and there is no clear delineation between the two.[/quote]

A programming language is a stylized communication technique intended to be used for controlling the behaviour of a machine (often a computer). Like human languages programming languages have syntactic and semantic rules used to define meaning.

Thousands[1] of different programming languages have been created and new ones are created every year. (see list of programming languages). Few languages ever become sufficiently popular that they are used by more than a few people, but a professional programmer is likely to use dozens of different languages during their career.

it seems that every computer lang. is a programming lang. that meakes sense, since you do programming
apperantly php is a scripting language, and scripting langs are a sub-group of programming langs.

does that make sense?

Sorry Tim (I think I read somewhere that you are not supposed to pick on root),

PHP is a scripting language. A programming language is something where the result needs to be compiled (like C/C++)

What about tokenized languages? They are compiled but still require an interprator. I tend to think of compiled vs. interperated languages being a continuum rather than two disticnt classes.

Likewise, at the other extreem, I'm not sure how to classify assembly. It is compiled into machine code but what if I want to use assembly from a different platform. i386 assembly is clearly a compiled language when compiled and run natively on an i386 computer. But, what happens if I want to write EDSAC* assembly for nostalga. There is a windows program that can read EDSAC assembly (in text format) and execute the instructions -- it is, in this sense an interperated language. But is it a scripting language?

-Selket

--------------------------
*Footnote: EDSAC was the first (IIRC) Von Neuman archetecture computer constructed. You can find the simulator and more information at http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/

I'm arrogant and this is a long post, so I've used subheadings. PH34R my somewhat inappropriate use of bolding.

Distinction, Continuum, Lol?
This thread has so far stated that so-called "compiled languages" or "programming language", such as C, are distinct from so-called "interpreted languages" or "scripting languages", such as Bash, because compiled languages need to be compiled.

C, for example, is (through various processes that you all understand better than I) compiled into machine code. The machine code is then itself interpreted by the computer when it is run. Some people take this as reasoning enough to contend that all languages are interpreted, but they are interpreted at different places and stages. However one might also take this paragraph to prove that C is a "compiled language" and machine code is an "interpreted language".

To further muddy the waters, Python is called a scripting language, but Python scripts are compiled before running. Perl can be compiled (though IIRC this is simply a process of stapling a Perl script onto an optimised Perl interpreter in a single binary).

Sometimes I get angry at other people's superior methods and write Makefiles to call Perl scripts to compile my own homebrew jibberish into PHP code. Does that make my jibberish a "programming language" and PHP a "scripting language", like machine code? Maybe, but I never was very good at logic.

Is that some e-penis?
A prevalent and valid point of view, I suppose, is characterising programming languages as "REAL MAN languages" and scripting languages as cop-outs for university-trained new-age buzzword-swilling pussies. This kind of thinking changes the issue from that of defining words (as discussed above in this post) to one of rating programming languages on their features or ease-of-use. I myself am not really sure where I stand on the validity of this characterisation.

Other people are smarter than me
From this post, I'd most like you to take in my paraphrasing of other people's words. I can't remember who wrote any of this.

"A script is what you give to the actors and a program is what you give to the audience." - might have been that Larry guy that made Perl? Or maybe the guy who wrote a manual about it.

When is a bowl a plate?

Conclusion
On Telstra Cable, you may have just paid 30 cents to load this post.

I personally use the term "programming language" to differentiate PHP and C from English or Hebrew. I don't consciously use the term "scripting language" apart from when it is interchanged with "programming language". Generally, people seem to know what I'm talking about.

-pcweirdo.

Tim wrote:Visual Basic is a runtime.

I agree, and additionally I would like to verify my understanding further.

Visual Basic is a runtime, that is, a set of DLL's which provide shared code for a Visual Basic application to use. So, a VB app is coded in the Visual Basic language. Then, upon the click of a button in the IDE, it is compiled into machine code (formatted as a Win32 executable), which makes references to code stored in the VB runtime files.

Does that sound about right or have I mistaken something?

By the way,

Some anonymous contributor to Wikipedia wrote:Visual Basic (VB) is an event driven programming language

and

Some anonymous contributor to Wikipedia wrote:Although programs can be compiled into native code executables from version 5 onwards, they still require the presence of runtime libraries of approximately 2 MB in size. This runtime is included by default in Windows 2000 and later, but for earlier versions of Windows it must be distributed together with the executable.

That quote block just sort of backs up what I wrote to a slight degree. More references can be found if you like, especially when you consider that Wikipedia is not gospel.

Tim wrote:A programming language is something where the result needs to be compiled (like C/C++) while a scripting lanaguge is something which is interpreted (php/perl/etc.).

Some anonymous contributor to Wikipedia wrote:VB.NET is also a fully-compiled language (as opposed to previous versions which could both compile and interpret the language).

Alas, Visual Basic blurs the lines when it comes to defining "programming languages" vs "scripting languages", much like Java.

-pcweirdo.

Dunno about programming/scripting language, but I do like it:)
It is scripting because you don't compile it on your machine (except if you're not hosting it), but it's programming because the webserver on the hosting compiles it to pure HTML.
Now what?

isralien wrote:Dunno about programming/scripting language, but I do like it:)
It is scripting because you don't compile it on your machine (except if you're not hosting it), but it's programming because the webserver on the hosting compiles it to pure HTML.
Now what?

I wouldn't say that PHP compiles to HTML. The output of a PHP script is (generally) HTML, but the "output of a process" is a lot different to "the re-formatting of the original description of the process".

For example, a certain C program might output GIF files. That doesn't mean that the C code or any code involved is actually "compiled" to GIF. It just means that the output of that program is a GIF.

-pcweirdo.

pcweirdo wrote:

isralien wrote:Dunno about programming/scripting language, but I do like it:)
It is scripting because you don't compile it on your machine (except if you're not hosting it), but it's programming because the webserver on the hosting compiles it to pure HTML.
Now what?

I wouldn't say that PHP compiles to HTML. The output of a PHP script is (generally) HTML, but the "output of a process" is a lot different to "the re-formatting of the original description of the process".

For example, a certain C program might output GIF files. That doesn't mean that the C code or any code involved is actually "compiled" to GIF. It just means that the output of that program is a GIF.

-pcweirdo.

You do have a point there, but remember that PHP can edit/create images?

isralien wrote:You do have a point there, but remember that PHP can edit/create images?

Yes; how is that relevant?

Thanks,
-pcweirdo.

PHP is a programming language because are functions.