Phoenix Network Forums

Before I start, this post is extremely opinionated. So don't bitch that it is.

To start neutrally, the topic for debate is the protesters in the US rallying for legalization rights for illegal immigrants.

Open for discussion is: EVERYTHING (motives, politicians backing it/repelling it, legal basis, moral basis, etc).

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link: Rallies across U.S. call for illegal immigrant rights

I'm totally in awe of the ignorance of these demonstrators concerning US Law.

link: Immigration rallies sweep through U.S. cities

"The reason why they don't listen to many migrants is because they cannot vote. But hopefully that will change."

Hopefully it will not change! It takes a shitload of work for anyone else to get into this country honestly! Letting the ones who sneak in illegally is shafting them greatly! Yes, it sucks that some poor guy and his children came here on a raft, work at an underpaying job and now have to get booted back to his homeland, but he knew what would happen to him if he got caught in the first place.

link: Latinos plan boycott to protest immigration bill

Gutierrez, whose group helped to organize a Los Angeles demonstration that attracted at least 200,000 participants last month, called the Senate bill an "encouraging sign" but said it was still too tough on those who want to become citizens.

"We think that the right thing to do is to grant full rights, full equality, under the laws in the Constitution of the United States to all immigrants, period," he said at a press conference.

Yes, organizing 10 000 people to march through a major Boston street during rush hour ... that's a way to increase support for their cause. So is making people take half an hour to go around one block because of the traffic backup, and so blatantly sticking it to the millions of people who worked to come here legally.

The second part is just more crap; if the US laws to immigrate here are too strict he should bring that up in the proper place, and by repealing them at that place, not by declaring it's bull and thus suddenly people shouldn't be held responsible for violating it. So far as I know, if a law is still in effect, you will be punished for violating it even if it's later repealed or in the proces of being repealed.

This is the best, isn't it?

1st off I agree whole heartedly,my Ancestor's were Native american Cherokee Indian,,And other part's of my Ancestor's were german and canadian and englishmen.

I dont dislike anyone,I've friend all over the world that id lay my life on the line for in a Heartbeat,,But i dont believe that my taxes should go up all the time to make sure that someone who doesnt even speak English can live good without having to fight for it,,or for that matter,Work for it..

I was a U.S. Marine during Desert shield and Desert Storm,,Every man in my family has been military in one way or the other,,And has given or layed his life on the line for what he has.

I've put my life on the line for the U.S. And in that aspect I've put my life on the line for their country as well,,Would an Imigrant do the same for my land? Maybe/Maybe not Who knows.

The marches in the street's are out of control and uncalled for,,I believe as what has already been stated,,"They knew what would happen if they were caught",,No offence to anyone anywhere but if They want what i've fought to keep free and obviously GIVE to them,,,They will have to live and do as we do and live.

I work my butt off to have what little I do have,Sure they can stay and have it,But let them earn it.

The U.S. may be A land of opertunity but by God It was slaved for and payed for over and over,I would have to Abide by another countries laws and custom's if were to want citizenship there.

There are many way's to become a U.S. citizen Legally,,And i open my door to anyone who want's it and work's for it like i do..

I say a non U.S. citizen has NO right's here what so ever,That may be a little harsh but as far as I'm concerned if they dont want to earn it,,Then leave..

Oh yes and for the record it was made clear that this topic would be opinionated,,So there you have it..

I know i got a bit off topic but thats my stand on it,Take me as I am or dont invade my space..

Great topic btw al_
I think you'll get plenty of responces.....

Starmax wrote:But i dont believe that my taxes should go up all the time to make sure that someone who doesnt even speak English can live

What does language have anything to do with it?

What does language have anything to do with it?

Well Actually Language was'nt the point here,,But if you wish to Single that out I'll tell you..

People come to my country all the time to live their live's no matter where their from,,Most often than not they are givien money,,Housing and a decent way of life if they choose to have it..

To sum up for you,,if a person come's from another coubtry to live here and they dont wanna learn the language or speak it,,I'm no obligated to pay his or her way..I learned their language when i was Temperarily in their country,,They can learn mine...

And this was not a topic over language nor was it meant that way nor will it become one,,Good day!!

I say a non U.S. citizen has NO right's here what so ever,That may be a little harsh but as far as I'm concerned if they dont want to earn it,,Then leave..

See, there's an extra group of people between the illegal immigrants and US citizens. They are called Resident Alien, and they pay shitloads of money in taxes. If they weren't paying taxes, maybe I'd agree with you.

Taxes, taxes, taxes... Taxes. Some more taxes. The REAL separation between legal residents and illegal immigration is, in fact, paying taxes. IF the government starts charging illegal immigrants for staying here (which is, really, what the taxes are), I don't see why they couldn't get legalized over time.. The thing is, I doubt the illegal immigrants would embrace the fact that they have to give a large chunk of money to the same government they were planning on boycotting.

"The reason why they don't listen to many migrants is because they cannot vote. But hopefully that will change."

That is just retarded. I can't think of a better word.

The United States's economy is based apon the relative slave labor of those individuals from our Southern Neighbor. There, I said it. It's pretty much true. If we were to remove the illegal workers from our workforce, you know how much impact that would have? Our agriculture industry would fail, people would complain about expensive oranges, and then George Bush would be blamed for something . Yeah, it kinda sucks they get healthcare, and try to get into our schools; but I'd propose a policy that gives illegal immigrants no financial/medical help etc, because of the fact they're... illegal. But to remove them entirely? Meep! We need our economy.

And so called 'border threats' from Mexico are unfounded. Actually, unrestricted Canadian immigration poses a greater threat to the United States due to their extremely lax asylum policy. Al-Qaeda has actually attempted to bring operatives into the US through Canada, luckily they were stopped by some sharp Customs officer. Meh, offtopic?

What does language have anything to do with it?

Well, I hate the fact when I go to Wendy's I have to specify 'no queso' on my hamburger because they end up always putting the damn fake cheese on it anyways.[/quote]

nighthawk wrote:Yeah, it kinda sucks they get healthcare, and try to get into our schools; but I'd propose a policy that gives illegal immigrants no financial/medical help etc, because of the fact they're... illegal. But to remove them entirely? Meep! We need our economy.

Yeah, don't send them out of the country!! Just.. let them die or something

nighthawk wrote:

What does language have anything to do with it?

Well, I hate the fact when I go to Wendy's I have to specify 'no queso' on my hamburger because they end up always putting the damn fake cheese on it anyways.

err.. lol? That's apparently not a language issue.

Samppa wrote:Yeah, don't send them out of the country!! Just.. let them die or something

Quite honestly, if they're willing to come here and take that risk, then yeah.

Samppa wrote:err.. lol? That's apparently not a language issue.

Ideally, I shouldn't have to know simple spanish phrases to be able to order food in a resteraunt in the middle of America (unless it's an authentic ethnic resteraunt).

The big issue about illegal immigration though, is that these illegals are driving without lisences, and even worse; without insurance. Yeah, it's sure nice having your car totalled, and then finding out the other person had no insurance. Sure, you could sue them, but then you'd get maybe like $50.

We should bill the Country of Origin for insurance fraud by illegals.

nighthawk wrote:The big issue about illegal immigration though, is that these illegals are driving without lisences, and even worse; without insurance. Yeah, it's sure nice having your car totalled, and then finding out the other person had no insurance. Sure, you could sue them, but then you'd get maybe like $50.

Yup, this very thing happened to my mother a year ago. Her car got backed into by a Brazilian woman who was in a rush and then tried to flee the scene. She had to drive after her and flag her down to get her to stop (as an aside, in the good fashion of America, two idiots had an accident "rubbernecking" on the other side of the road).

The real kicker was when she found out that the "hit-and-runner" only had a Brazilian license (and got better when we found out her "green card" had expired three months ago). And better still when she "remembered" that her husband was in the car with her at the time of the accident (probably because she wasn't insured to drive his car).

I'm also pretty certain that they're still in this country though.

nighthawk wrote:We should bill the Country of Origin for insurance fraud by illegals.

Yeah ... and how much of that money do you plan on getting? Suppose they're from a shit-poor country that can't feed its own people--you'll just be penalizing innocent people for a few idiots who deserve punishment.

nighthawk wrote:

Samppa wrote:Yeah, don't send them out of the country!! Just.. let them die or something

Quite honestly, if they're willing to come here and take that risk, then yeah.

Good point, have them either die where they're coming from or where they go. Cos they're really not human after all.

nighthawk wrote:

Samppa wrote:err.. lol? That's apparently not a language issue.

Ideally, I shouldn't have to know simple spanish phrases to be able to order food in a resteraunt in the middle of America (unless it's an authentic ethnic resteraunt).

So what is your stance on on illegal workers? They uphold the economy, but you can't stand the choice employees take when employing them.
And the language issue of the moment is in fact:

But i dont believe that my taxes should go up all the time to make sure that someone who doesnt even speak English can live good without having to fight for it,,or for that matter,Work for it

nighthawk wrote:The big issue about illegal immigration though, is that these illegals are driving without lisences, and even worse; without insurance. Yeah, it's sure nice having your car totalled, and then finding out the other person had no insurance. Sure, you could sue them, but then you'd get maybe like $50.

Now that would suck.

Just read this and had to share it. It looks like we should follow Mexico's example in handing illegal immigration.
Lets make it a felony and make it punishable by two years in prison!
Or lets shoot random illegals as a warning!

Wait, Mexico wants us to give their worker's rights? I'm confused! Too many mixed messages!

The culture gap between pisspoor Mexico and world power USA is slightly different, along with the number of migrants

Looks pretty bad, but are you going to stoop to their level or set an example? Mexico could justify the actions further in the future if the greatest country in the world does not take kindly to illegals.

On a different note, the US should see, with all the coverage the issue has around the world, that allowing the migrants to stay and giving them rights would bring back some face lost in the past 5 years. Altough it's not the world's business what will happen, it would still be a good move.

Samppa wrote:Looks pretty bad, but are you going to stoop to their level or set an example? Mexico could justify the actions further in the future if the greatest country in the world does not take kindly to illegals.

I was pointing the overall hypocrisy of the Mexian political platform regarding immigration workers. Why are their illegal workers deserving of rights that illegals in their own nation don't even get?

Samppa wrote:On a different note, the US should see, with all the coverage the issue has around the world, that allowing the migrants to stay and giving them rights would bring back some face lost in the past 5 years. Altough it's not the world's business what will happen, it would still be a good move.

Well, the thing is, most Americans don't want illegals to be given rights or an easy bypass to citizenchip. Therefore, the benefeit of allowing illegals to have rights are if the Mexican voting populations increased allegience to a party, or the American people as a whole.

nighthawk wrote:I was pointing the overall hypocrisy of the Mexian political platform regarding immigration workers. Why are their illegal workers deserving of rights that illegals in their own nation don't even get?

Err:

Samppa wrote:Looks pretty bad, but are you going to stoop to their level or set an example? Mexico could justify the actions further in the future if the greatest country in the world does not take kindly to illegals.

nighthawk wrote:

Samppa wrote:On a different note, the US should see, with all the coverage the issue has around the world, that allowing the migrants to stay and giving them rights would bring back some face lost in the past 5 years. Altough it's not the world's business what will happen, it would still be a good move.

Well, the thing is, most Americans don't want illegals to be given rights or an easy bypass to citizenchip. Therefore, the benefeit of allowing illegals to have rights are if the Mexican voting populations increased allegience to a party, or the American people as a whole.

Altough it's not the world's business what will happen, it would still be a good move for international popularity.

Wow

I had heard alot about this in news and from friends talking. I personally have relatives who date back to prerevolutionary war times. I had one relative figth in the revolutionary war (saddly for the loosing side). So my status is well settled in the US.

I can see that for these illegal immigrants that the US means so much to them and that it is such a great place that they would illegally come over the boarder to live here. I think that we should make the borders easier to cross legally. There is no reason to have so many people illegally in a country and it needs to be fixed. The hijackers of the 9/11 planes were illegally here and probably used the same methods as these aliens did.

I would think that going after the employers would be a good way to keep a check on the illegal population but I guess this is not working...