Phoenix Network Forums

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:They are going to pay our debts and taxes????WEEEEEEPYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

That's what my Dutch friend used to always tell me. LOL, sorry, I must skip on this

There's several main reasons for me not liking the EU, mainly politics and money things that concern me.

Holland is the largest contributor to the EU per head of the country.

About 15% of the EU's income goes to the farmers. Holland used to have alot of farmers but we cannot compete with alot of other country's. Not even with all the money we get from the EU. Now this is not a thing thats completly a EU problem since our goverment also supports local farmers but to me it just doesnt make sense to put alot of money which is simply unprofitable. Now with the new country's comming which have alot of agriculture expenses for this sector would improve alot so the EU decided to only let the budget for this sector grow marginaly to compensate inflation. However since Holland pays more then they receive we are in percentage losing to country's which relie much more on agriculture then Holland does.

Another 25% of the income goes to upgrading the infrastructure of underdevelopped areas. Again, same as above, thew new country's are going to benifit more from this then Holland will.

Ok, there's alot more things about the moneyflow in the EU I don't like but I dont want to sound like I hate all eastern countrys because I don't .

Then there is the crap that the UK gets a 7 billion rebate. Why on earth are they getting a goddamn rebate?! Ok, so after our minister got pissed about this we got a little rebate aswel but this was less then 1 billion and we remain the biggest net payer per head. Since Holland is not the most welthy country this just does not make sense to me! To me it looks like we are being ripped off by a union we started in the first place to improve our position!

Next point: the Euro. This has made life more expensive, I don't give a damn what some reports might say but since the euro came things have gotten alot more expensive then they where (even when you take inflation into consideration). This was decided by the goverment/EU without something like an open voting by the inhabitants of a country which kind of defines the idea of living in a democracy. Sure it has advantages but seeing as it made life alot more expensive and the way we got it shoved down our throat makes me dislike it.

Also, who came up with the idea of having a European constitutional law? Now, at this point I am happy the goverment listnend to the people and said no just like France (never thought i'd say a good thing about anything French besides their girls;)). I don't see why we want this settled on a European level. Each country is unique, keep it that way and don't try and form 1 big country only devided by legal borders. To me it just seems like more rules to cover things which are already individualy coverd by per country laws. Besides, you have to comply to our standards to enter the EU anyway right? (think human rights + Turkey).

Now soon several new country's will join the EU. Again, I think they benefit alot more from joining then we do from then joining. Now i'm not saying Holland should not help other less well developed country's because I should be glad Holland received a great deal of help when we needed it (WWII + Marshal plan) but this is not what the European Union should do in my opinion. Holland and several other country's started the EU to obtain a better financial position, not to help other country's get out of the shit position they are in. Plus, these country's will get a big deal of influence in the EU since the number of chairs are devided according to the number of inhabitants (Holland has aprox 16million inhabitants) we will loose even more power from the little bit we have left. Holland is one of the founders of the EU while I keep getting the feeling we are being put on a sidetrack while our ministers keep getting sent from the closet to the wall.

Then, these new country's dont comply to what I think should be (western) standards regarding healthcare/human rights/democracy etc. In Turkey people still get tortured even though they are already having talks about joining. I'd say get your shit sorted before even consider joining! Plus, Turkey is largely an Aziatic country, please, stay there and don't come profit from us!

Same goes for the other country's on the join list. Secret CIA prisons, suckers! if you want to be a part of the EU then take 1 point and don't have secrets about this kind of things. Seeing as the inmates in those prisons till a short time ago didn't have the rights inmates who fall ander the Geneve convence fall they have very little rights. And the country's these prisons are located in are 'eastern europe' which already has a questionable reputation I doubt the inmates are treated very well.

Also, why on earth does the EU meddle with software company's like Microsoft, Antitrust my ass, we choose to give them that monopoly, don't start blaming them for taking the chance! If Nellie Kroes doesnt want a dominant Windows EU then she should make good alternative instead of fining MS for insufficient documentation and such (I doubt that money, $497 million afaik? went to a *nix or other Windows alternative).

I could go on like this for some pages but I doubt any of you would find that interesting :p

So basicly it comes down to this. Holland and some other countrys started the EU to get in a financial better position, not to help other country's get out of their shit. Times changed and the EU 'evolved' into a money gulping thing which makes Holland pay alot more then it receives. The EU wasnt started to cost money, drop it ffs! Keep politics within your own country, Holland is already getting fucked by its own goverment, we don't need to get raped by the EU aswel.

I might sound like someone who likes everything better the way it was yesterday and has extremistic thoughts, ah well, I might think like that but then, I just have very little faith in politics (Sharia in Holland anyone?)

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:They are going to pay our debts and taxes????WEEEEEEPYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

Soon when we join EU ....will be like in paradise...lol..We wont work, we`ll have alot of money, and others will pay our bills..

LOL
It would be really nice, if it was truth

Thats quite a long post rootland; though i have to say that the secret CIA prison is crap it never existed it was more of a hoax then anything real.
And about Turkey i visited it, and i have to say it deserves entering the union even more tham us countrys in the East.

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:Thats quite a long post rootland; though i have to say that the secret CIA prison is crap it never existed it was more of a hoax then anything real.
And about Turkey i visited it, and i have to say it deserves entering the union even more tham us countrys in the East.

In that case, you must have it pretty bad concerning human rights and whatnot.

As for the prisons, I thought the US admitted to them?


@ rootland:
The euro has made life more expensive, but some countries had a vote on the matter.
I thought the constitution had nothing to do with making one big country?
The newcomers will benefit more, but do you consider that what is given to them is taken from you?
What's your point about Microsoft? I don't get it. I though the issue was that Microsoft doesn't share enough of its source code to the world.
The EU has evolved and become totally different from it's starting position. Whether someone founded it or not shouldn't have anything to do with it today, and I'm glad the founding countries don't have special priviliges.

@ tarbosaurus_geticus:
It's not a Hoax, G. W. Bush admitted himself that there where secret CIA prisons.

Furthermore, in what aspect is a country like Turkey comparable to the (west) of Europe?, their main religion is the Islam, they have a very bad record regarding human rights, there currency/economics are very weak. I don't see how Holland will benefit in any way from Turkey (or for the same matter the countrys from eastern Europe). Plus, most of Turkey is located in Azia, why don't they go there or start something similar if it's not already there? My guesses are it is because Europe has more money and they will benefit more. Sure from their point of view, it's a smart move but from my point, a Dutchie, it just sucks.

@ Samppa
My point about the Microsoft thing is that I don't see why the EU should interfear with this, in my opinion, it's just not something that should be decided on a politics level.

And yes, I do think that the money that goes to the new countrys is taken away from Holland, we remain the biggest net payer of the EU and to me this kind of stings.

Also, I think the founding countrys should atleast have some form of elevated rights, this doesn't have to be taken to the extreme like a VETO or something but now Holland is just being pushed down as more and more larger countrys join. Holland has alot less influence then it originaly had and I don't like that.

rootland wrote:Plus, most of Turkey is located in Azia, why don't they go there or start something similar if it's not already there? My guesses are it is because Europe has more money and they will benefit more. Sure from their point of view, it's a smart move but from my point, a Dutchie, it just sucks.

Take that up with the EU, they're the ones telling Turkey to get their act together so they can join.

rootland wrote:@ Samppa
in my opinion, it's just not something that should be decided on a politics level.

Where should/could it be decided then?

rootland wrote:And yes, I do think that the money that goes to the new countrys is taken away from Holland, we remain the biggest net payer of the EU and to me this kind of stings.

But can you see that on the streets? Do you have more poverty than you did 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago? Is Holland getting poorer because of this?

rootland wrote:Also, I think the founding countrys should atleast have some form of elevated rights, this doesn't have to be taken to the extreme like a VETO or something but now Holland is just being pushed down as more and more larger countrys join. Holland has alot less influence then it originaly had and I don't like that.

The EU isn't the same, it's gotten more democratic (or it's supposed to have), the member states get a representative into the EU based on the country's population, and with the influx of new countries from decades ago and now, the original power is going to slip away and get divided. Which is good, because if Holland, or all 6 founding countries were given extra power, about 1/8 of the world's population, 20-some countries, would be very much in the hands of 6 countries, with an overall population of about 250 million - not exactly the ideal situation for a democratic society. You'll also be wanting to take this up with your government instead of bitching about it

Samppa wrote:Take that up with the EU, they're the ones telling Turkey to get their act together so they can join.

Thats one reason why I don't like the EU

Samppa wrote:Where should/could it be decided then?

By us the users of Microsoft software.

Samppa wrote:But can you see that on the streets? Do you have more poverty than you did 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago? Is Holland getting poorer because of this?

Noops, we are definitly in a better position then back then however thats not the point, I just don't think it's fair that we pay an unequal share compared to our wealth.

Samppa wrote:The EU isn't the same, it's gotten more democratic (or it's supposed to have), the member states get a representative into the EU based on the country's population, and with the influx of new countries from decades ago and now, the original power is going to slip away and get divided. Which is good, because if Holland, or all 6 founding countries were given extra power, about 1/8 of the world's population, 20-some countries, would be very much in the hands of 6 countries, with an overall population of about 250 million - not exactly the ideal situation for a democratic society. You'll also be wanting to take this up with your government instead of bitching about it

Completly true however all I see is that Holland gets lets and less options to defend its arguments since we are loosing seats. Sure this is the way the democratic system works but that does not mean I have to like it .

Plus, how much can we Dutchies do about it?:P (even if the goverment would want to change it)

Also, this thread was created to give your opinion about the EU so I guess its ok for me to bitch all I want aslong as I don't break the rules

And the more I keep reading about politics and the EU the stronger my thoughts are of atleast joining a political party. To bad that i'm 8000km away from Holland atm so I can't actualy go into debating clubs right now

Good to atleast have a discussion though, makes me research things abit furthering my anti-EU thoughts :p

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:I can't agree with you Will that the European Union is comparable to the United States

I compared it to the UN.

Hmmm Sampa , rootland your having quite a debate there despite what bush said about the prisons in our country general opinion and mass media consider it a hoax. Its not the first time when western journalists write crap about our countrys, i remember a time when they said the orphanage system was inhuman when in fact it was ok.

I'm pretty sure the CIA wouldn't just say, "oh yeah, sure we got some prisons in the, err, you know them countries, yeah, secret ones..".

It's not even a great cover up for anything.



As for rootland, I'll get back to you on Microsoft later

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:Hmmm Sampa , rootland your having quite a debate there despite what bush said about the prisons in our country general opinion and mass media consider it a hoax. Its not the first time when western journalists write crap about our countrys, i remember a time when they said the orphanage system was inhuman when in fact it was ok.

Afaik Bush did not name any country specificaly. Also, he said tougher interogation methods where needed, to me, this does not sound like a hoax because I realy doubt Bush would make himself look bad unless he was forced to do so.

Also, what Eastern Europe considers 'OK' might not go for 'OK' in the western world. Currently I live in the Antillies and some places which people here think are 'OK' would be declared inhuman in Holland for sure (like Ghetto's for example).

@ Samppa:
please do so though the MS thing is not one of my strong points (regarding backing up my talks) but more a way I think about how things should be organized. I'll be happy to debate though

rootland wrote:more a way I think about how things should be organized. I'll be happy to debate though

How am I supposed to win any argument if you worm your way out of it before I get started
Please explain how you think things should be organised (and I'll tell why they shouldn't be done that way )
If it's long, best move this to a new thread, if it's small.. I think we can feign an interest in the original purpose of the thread

Hehe, good point

Anyways, I think politics should not control the way software/hardware vendors like Microsoft roll out their products. Aslong as people are not forced to use Windows the EU should just let it go. If they don't want Microsoft to become dominant they should actively promote Linux or whatever System or just other systems in general.

We as users choose for Microsoft and we choose to use the products they offer. Even the measures the EU has taken to bring down its monopoly position are not embraced by us, the users. The Windows XP version without Mediaplayer hardly gets solled because people don't want a stripped down OS. Plus, Mediaplayer has benifits which other audio programs do not have or atleast, not in such an easy way as Mediaplayer.

Furthermore, the alternatives are not as ready for personal use by non tech people. Windows is simply the best solution to alot of people (god i'm gonna get flamed for this). Sure, Linux, BSD, Mac OSX are suiteable for people with an interest in computers and who don't mind getting their hands dirty. However, the majority of the people is not like this and will not feel comfortable (why do I need to type pkg_add -r <program> when before I could just click on next 2 times!).

What i'm trying to show is that it won't matter how much the EU fines Microsoft or what restrictions/rules they give to Microsoft it is us as a userbase who create the monopoly and maintain it.

If the European Union realy wants to do something against the monopoly I realy think they should focus on educating the computerliterate people who make sure Microsoft stays dominant.

Also for all you people who will say that linux is cheaper, on what is this based? Several of Hollands city's (and forgein countrys aswel) have conducted research on migrating their systems to Linux. Many of them decide not to do this because of all costs which come into play and liability (provided as is with no people who can be held responsible). Besides, Windows is not as expensive when using Volume Licensing as it is for home users who have retail prices.

This is just to illustrate then when people try and look away from microsoft they are stopped often due to limitations/TOC from the competing side. Again, this strengthens my point that we as users enforce the monopoly Microsoft has.

And the thing is, its not just Microsoft but also alot of other software vendors who only release Windows versions of their software so if you need that specific software, you need Windows. Then, is Microsoft to blame for this, other companys help stem staying in the monopoly position they are in. I don't think so!

If the EU realy wants to prevent Microsoft from having a monopoly they should focus on providing alternatives with the same quality/user friendlyness as provided by Windows/Microsoft.

Also, please don't come and tell me about Microsoft's documentation being so crappy that it prevents others from building quality software. If the manpages/open source systems are so much better why is there so much more coorporate software released for Microsoft? Large software vendors know enough about Windows and its inner workings to develop proper software, why should Microsoft give them more openness, its their product, they can do with it what they want, after all, we choose to use their products. If software companys need more opennes, go develop software for open source systems where you can get as much information as you want, if you choose to deal with Microsoft, respect their terms.

Meh, if I type more I guess i'll start repeating myself to much. What it comes down to is that I think politics like the EU (which is still a democracy right?) should not interfear with a software vendor which we as users gave the position they are in (its a democracy, we choose for them, then it should be accepted right). If they seriously want to bring down marketshare of Microsoft the starting point should be the people and not the company.

Plus, the EU is there to protect the European economical position, now tell me, what alternate OS has Europe to offer which justifies knocking down on a US company. This is where we get back to my thoughts about what the EU should do and what not (this is what I meant with that I might not be able to defend myself Samppa hehe, guess that was not realy clear from my last post).

The EU is there to protect Europe but what is there to protect in the case of Microsoft?

edit: Ok, after a little chat with ultra on IRC I figured I might clear myself on this point. Yes I think Microsoft should loose some of its monopoly. However, I fail to see what European products are protected by fining Microsoft, which benifits does the EU get from these fines regarding our market?.

God, I suck in making myself clear ah well

tarbosaurus_geticus wrote:And about Turkey i visited it, and i have to say it deserves entering the union even more tham us countrys in the East.

Probably you saw only the European part of Turkey. Visit the Asian one, you'll change your mind!